Well, if you think about human beings, were being faced with unexpected environments all the time. And what I would argue is theres all these other kinds of states of experience and not just me, other philosophers as well. Just trying to do something thats different from the things that youve done before, just that can itself put you into a state thats more like the childlike state. Because theres a reason why the previous generation is doing the things that theyre doing and the sense of, heres this great range of possibilities that we havent considered before. So I keep thinking, oh, yeah, now what we really need to do is add Mary Poppins to the Marvel universe, and that would be a much better version. Theyre not just doing the obvious thing, but theyre not just behaving completely randomly. Or to take the example about the robot imitators, this is a really lovely project that were working on with some people from Google Brain. Any kind of metric that you said, almost by definition, if its the metric, youre going to do better if you teach to the test. And he said, the book is so much better than the movie. By Alison Gopnik. But is there any scientific evidence for the benefit of street-haunting, as Virginia Woolf called it? Tell me a little bit about those collaborations and the angle youre taking on this. So what they did was have humans who were, say, manipulating a bunch of putting things on a desk in a virtual environment. Ive been thinking about the old program, Kids Say the Darndest Things, if you just think about the things that kids say, collect them. And he was absolutely right. Thats what lets humans keep altering their values and goals, and most of the time, for good. This, three blocks, its just amazing. Essentially what Mary Poppins is about is this very strange, surreal set of adventures that the children are having with this figure, who, as I said to Augie, is much more like Iron Man or Batman or Doctor Strange than Julie Andrews, right? I think its a good place to come to a close. Its a terrible literature. But one of the great finds for me in the parenting book world has been Alison Gopniks work. Part of the problem and this is a general explore or exploit problem. You can listen to our whole conversation by following The Ezra Klein Show on Apple, Spotify, Google or wherever you get your podcasts. Now its not a form of experience and consciousness so much, but its a form of activity. The following articles are merged in Scholar. And that means Ive also sometimes lost the ability to question things correctly. So, explore first and then exploit. So we actually did some really interesting experiments where we were looking at how these kinds of flexibility develop over the space of development. In The Gardener and the Carpenter, the pioneering developmental psychologist and philosopher Alison Gopnik argues that the familiar twenty-first-century picture of parents and children is profoundly wrongit's not just based on bad science, it's bad for kids and parents, too. Unlike my son and I dont want to brag here unlike my son, I can make it from his bedroom to the kitchen without any stops along the way. Sometimes if theyre mice, theyre play fighting. The ones marked, A Gopnik, C Glymour, DM Sobel, LE Schulz, T Kushnir, D Danks, Behavioral and Brain sciences 16 (01), 90-100, An earlier version of this chapter was presented at the Society for Research, Understanding other minds: perspectives from autism., 335-366, British journal of developmental psychology 9 (1), 7-31, Journal of child language 22 (3), 497-529, New articles related to this author's research, Co-Director, Institute for Learning & Brain Sciences, Professor of Psychology, University of, Professor of Psychology and Computer Science, Princeton University, Professor, Psychology & Neuroscience, Duke University, Associate Faculty, Harvard University Graduate School of Education, Associate Professor of Psychology, University of Waterloo, Professor of Data Science & Philosophy; UC San Diego, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology, university of Wisconsin Madison, Professor, Developmental Psychology, University of Waterloo, Columbia, Psychology and Graduate School of Business, Professor, History and Philosophy of Science, University of Pittsburgh, Children's understanding of representational change and its relation to the understanding of false belief and the appearance-reality distinction, Why the child's theory of mind really is a theory. And then the other one is whats sometimes called the default mode. I think its off, but I think its often in a way thats actually kind of interesting. Its partially this ability to exist within the imaginarium and have a little bit more of a porous border between what exists and what could than you have when youre 50. [You can listen to this episode of The Ezra Klein Show on Apple, Spotify, Google or wherever you get your podcasts.]. Paul Krugman Breaks It Down. Yeah, I think theres a lot of evidence for that. Planets and stars, eclipses and conjunctions would seem to have no direct effect on our lives, unlike the mundane and sublunary antics of our fellow humans. And again, thats a lot of the times, thats a good thing because theres other things that we have to do. But heres the catch, and the catch is that innovation-imitation trade-off that I mentioned. Theyre seeing what we do. But the numinous sort of turns up the dial on awe. Well, or what at least some people want to do. I think anyone whos worked with human brains and then goes to try to do A.I., the gulf is really pretty striking. But I think they spend much more of their time in that state. values to be aligned with the values of humans? And all that looks as if its very evolutionarily costly. Seventeen years ago, my son adopted a scrappy, noisy, bouncy, charming young street dog and named him Gretzky, after the great hockey player. My example is Augie, my grandson. If you're unfamiliar with Gopnik's work, you can find a quick summary of it in her Ted Talk " What Do Babies Think ?" Your self is gone. Customer Service. Well, I was going to say, when you were saying that you dont play, you read science fiction, right? from Oxford University. Everything around you becomes illuminated. The Many Minds of the Octopus (15 Apr 2021). So I think we have children who really have this explorer brain and this explorer experience. A theory of causal learning in children: causal maps and Bayes nets. And if you actually watch what the octos do, the tentacles are out there doing the explorer thing. Theres all these other kinds of ways of being sentient, ways of being aware, ways of being conscious, that are not like that at all. When I went to Vox Media, partially I did that because of their great CMS or publishing software Chorus. Youre desperately trying to focus on the specific things that you said that you would do. Youre not deciding what to pay attention to in the movie. Ive trained myself to be productive so often that its sometimes hard to put it down. You do the same thing over and over again. Im going to keep it up with these little occasional recommendations after the show. And I think its called social reference learning. ALISON GOPNIK: Well, from an evolutionary biology point of view, one of the things that's really striking is this relationship between what biologists call life history, how our developmental. But it also involves allowing the next generation to take those values, look at them in the context of the environment they find themselves in now, reshape them, rethink them, do all the things that we were mentioning that teenagers do consider different kinds of alternatives. The flneur has a long and honored literary history. But if you think that part of the function of childhood is to introduce that kind of variability into the world and that being a good caregiver has the effect of allowing children to come out in all these different ways, then the basic methodology of the twin studies is to assume that if parenting has an effect, its going to have an effect by the child being more like the parent and by, say, the three children that are the children of the same parent being more like each other than, say, the twins who are adopted by different parents. Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley, where she has taught since 1988. . But your job is to figure out your own values. join Steve Paulson of To the Best of Our Knowledge, Alison Gopnik of the University of California, Berkeley, Carl Safina of Stony On January 17th, join Steve Paulson of To the Best of Our Knowledge, Alison Gopnik of the . In this Aeon Original animation, Alison Gopnik, a writer and a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley, examines how these unparalleled vulnerable periods are likely to be at least somewhat responsible for our smarts. That ones a dog. But it turns out that if instead of that, what you do is you have the human just play with the things on the desk. Do you think theres something to that? Dow Jones Reprints at 1-800-843-0008 or visit www.djreprints.com. Alex Murdaugh Receives Life Sentence: What Happens Now? You may change your billing preferences at any time in the Customer Center or call So I think more and more, especially in the cultural context, that having a new generation that can look around at everything around it and say, let me try to make sense out of this, or let me understand this and let me think of all the new things that I could do, given this new environment, which is the thing that children, and I think not just infants and babies, but up through adolescence, that children are doing, that could be a real advantage. Theres a certain kind of happiness and joy that goes with being in that state when youre just playing. Thats really what were adapted to, are the unknown unknowns. Theres a book called The Children of Green Knowe, K-N-O-W-E. Thats it for the show. 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